Knee Deep in the Passenger Seat

Knee Deep in the Trenches, Part 1 feat. Guest Jill Lissner aka @sexedprincess

• Cady & Sharilyn • Season 1 • Episode 2

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In this episode, Cady and Sharilyn sit down with Jill Lissner—educator, content creator, and student—to dive deep into reproductive justice and abortion care. Together, they unpack systemic barriers to access, the power of personal stories, and how misinformation impacts abortion rights.

But that’s not all! The conversation takes a creative turn as they explore the sapphic vibes in Wicked, polar bears (!! 🐾), and the connections between compassion, sustainability, and advocacy.


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We love hearing from you! Got a question or a topic you’d like us to cover? Email us at kneedeepodcastmailbag@gmail.com

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Transcript of Episode 2: Knee Deep in the Trenches Pt 1


Transcribed by Kris Joy


Cady Moore (00:00)

Hello, hello, welcome back to Knee Deep in the Passenger Seat. I'm Cady


Sharilyn Wester (00:03)

And I'm Sharilyn.

We are here to talk about sex, relationships, queer issues, and basically all the spicy stuff that keeps life interesting.


[Intro music theme ending with the words “Knee deep in the passenger seat”.]


Cady Moore (00:35)

Today's episode is going to be great. It's gonna be a little intense, but super important. We are diving into abortion and reproductive justice today.


Sharilyn Wester (00:44)

I think this is one of those topics that can spark a lot of feelings, grief, anger, hope. We're going to hold space for all of that.


Cady Moore (00:53)

So buckle up y'all because we are getting knee deep in a conversation about autonomy, access, and why everyone deserves to make decisions about their own damn bodies.


Sharilyn Wester (01:01)

This week our guest is Jill Lissner, [excitedly] whooo! You might know her from her Instagram handle @sexedprincess, where she shares information on sexual health, abortion and reproduction. She has her master's degree in human sexuality and is on to pursue her doctorate.


Cady Moore (01:19)

Before we get into the meat of our episode, we are going to open with a new segment. Sharilyn, what is in your passenger seat today?


Sharilyn Wester (01:28)

Well, definitely relief, I would say, honestly. I just finished my semester for school yesterday, [Cady makes exciting air horn sounds and cheers] I finally did my last final, it was a literature final. And so I'm actually waiting to get back my final grades on Friday, but I am done for the semester. And I have been kind of going nonstop.


Sharilyn Wester (01:54)

My previous semester kind of bled into this one and it was interlinked by a hurricane and so leaving the last semester going into this one was just kind of a big ball of stress. I didn't really get downtime so I'm very looking forward to having a bit of downtime for the holidays. I have about another week and a half where I am free and my kids are still in school for a little bit before their Christmas break.


Sharilyn Wester (2:31) So I'm really excited to actually get some self care in. I'm going to be painting and playing video games and writing more fanfic and probably sleeping, which is gonna be really great. And then I have some projects that I'm thinking and brainstorming on some creative side projects that I actually am gonna kinda start giving some gas to. So yes, what about yourself?


Cady Moore (02:45)

Ooh, well now I want to know about the creative projects, but in my passenger seat today is honestly…the full moon is on Sunday and I am feeling a lot of rage [Sharilyn laughs] and some like, some monsters inside of me and some darkness that I'm looking to like really kind of dive into, which is funny for a full moon. That's normally a new moon energy thing. [Sharilyn: mmmh]


Cady Moore (3:25) 

Just like this winter in general, I have been really intentionally treating as an opportunity to rest and turn inward. And so we're shining some light into some dark corners. So in my passenger seat today is like a lot of, honestly… honestly…, I'm kind of picturing like, Lysandra as the sea dragon in my passenger seat.


Sharilyn Wester (03:48)

[Laughing] Yes, oh my gosh. I was going to ask you when you're talking about turning inwards and kind of shining a light on some of those dark places. What are some of your practices? Obviously, number one is imagining a fictional fantasy character that we both adore. What does that look like? I know you're really into tarot. Is that kind of an avenue in a way that you can intersect with a safe space where you can explore that? Or what does that look like for you?


Cady Moore (04:14)

Yeah, so I actually just started working with a new tarot deck. It was gifted to me, which is like a very risky thing to do, because tarot decks are very personal and it was just like exactly what I needed. It's by Mari in the Sky.[Sharilyn: mmh]  It's called the Gentle Tarot. And so it's deeply rooted in indigenous culture, specifically in Alaska and in the nature of Alaska. And so it's very... animal oriented and it's just very, it's very gentle. mean, it's in the name. So it's been really digging into facets of myself that there hasn't been much space for. I know this is like kind of an ADHD podcast. So we, you know, we talk about it, but as an ADHD kid, I feel like I don't often err on the side of gentle.


Cady Moore (5:08)

I tend to be a little bit more fast paced and like moving, moving, moving. So to really like slow down. [Sharilyn: you’re my little fire heart heart] God, don't make me cry. So yeah, so doing a lot, a lot of tarot. [Sharilyn: oh perfect, my favorite thing to do!] oh my God.


Cady Moore (5:37)

I will say, you know, our next question is, what are some things we're looking forward to? And this is, this is also gonna be my first winter celebrating Yule, which is a 12 day celebration and there's a different theme for every night. And I don't know that I'll be able to do all of them, especially because it coincides with Hanukkah over a lot of the nights, but it's my first time doing it and I'm really excited to have something to really center me at the end of the year, which tends to be kind of like a no man's land. I think for a lot of people, it's like we just kind of black out from Christmas Eve through New Year. Yeah, yeah.


Sharilyn Wester (06:03)

Oh yeah, you don't know what day of the week it is.


Cady Moore (06:08)

Yeah, and you know, and I haven't celebrated Christmas in like five years now. And so I'm just really looking forward to having something to kind of dig into. Yeah, yeah. [Sharilyn: I love that]  So it's tarot and then it's planning all of my ritual for yule all and decorating for yule. We just put up a big cedar garland that smells so good and I'm really I'm excited about it. What are you looking forward to?


Sharilyn Wester (06:38)

my god, I bet that smells amazing. For me, honestly, definitely with the holiday season, I celebrate Christmas with my girls. so I think for me, Christmas is like one of those events - for anyone who has children, you might also align with this or maybe not - but it is one of those yearly things that almost like, puts you back into your inner child at the speed of light while you also get to see people in real time forming core memories [Cady: mmmhmm].  I think that is what's special about it to me. 


Sharilyn Wester (7:11)

 I think the magic of it, think the ritualistic aspects of it that are so fun and just coming together, celebrating being together. Obviously for children, they see it through a different light and you know maybe more materialistic which is fine, but ultimately the joy that comes from the materials is feeling like you deserve something or you get to be showered with something just because you know and so getting to see that a light in my girl's eyes is amazing. I also am going on a girls trip to New Orleans in January, which I've never been there before. I've always wanted to go. It's kind of been like, you know, growing up Canadian, it was kind of like this mystical place where, you know, in a lot of the very sexy vampire books I read, it is a common place to go. But it's gonna be my first time going.


Cady Moore (08:10)

I was gonna say even as an American, it's a very like mystical place.


Sharilyn Wester (08:14)

Yeah. Right, right. And so yes, I'm going to be going with my sister and a couple friends. My sister's actually coming down to visit from Canada, which is great. So I'm going to haul her along with me and we're going to just do some exploring, probably go on a cheesy vampire tour, which honestly is exactly right up my alley [Cady: aaah] and like check out some like really cool shops and just eat good food. And yeah, I think one thing I'm really trying to do in 2025 - and we won't get too deep into this - is in recognizing in 2024, the impact of decentering men or romance or connections with the opposite sex for me or those who are part of like maybe like a cishet culture or whatever. I am actively intensely trying to make more space for collectives of women, which also kind of ties into what is like a little project that I've been brainstorming that I want to launch in a little bit. So, yes, I think that is something I'm really looking forward to tapping into that energy and just being somewhere - somewhere new and exploring somewhere new for the first time. Because I think there's always just like, there's something about that, you know, when you go to a new city, and you just don't know it. No one knows who I am. I can give a fake name.


Cady Moore (09:31)

You can be anyone. Yes.


Sharilyn Wester (09:33)

I can be anyone, exactly! I can be the weird girl with plastic vampire fangs asking the tour guide a million questions. Which I will be. I intend on it.


Sharilyn Wester (09:49)

(distorted voice) So you're telling me this is where the friends quarter ends, right? [Laughter] my goodness. Okay. Before we introduce our guest, do you have any definitions for this episode, by the way? Just quick segue.


Cady Moore (10:06)

Yes, so as we already mentioned, we're going to be talking about abortion and reproductive justice today. So I would be remiss if I did not take an opportunity to, well, first of all, to thank Black women because, spoiler alert, they are who coined the phrase “reproductive justice.” But I also want to take a little moment as a public health educator to teach about what reproductive justice even is, because I think people, when they think about it, they think about it specifically in the context of abortion, when in reality,


Cady Moore (10:28)

Reproductive justice and the reproductive justice framework is about the right to have children the right to not have children and this is key; the right to parent in safe and healthy communities, [Sharilyn: mmmh, yes] which means that reproductive justice is about the entire life cycle And it is about the right to bring your children into a safe and healthy planet.


Cady Moore (10:48)

It's the right to know that your children will have access to healthcare. It is the right to know that they will have food security. All of that is reproductive justice. So the term was coined in 1994 by the Black Women's Caucus at a pro-choice conference because they felt that the mainstream reproductive rights movement wasn't doing enough to address the systemic barriers that people of color, low income folks, and other marginalized groups were facing. So it's really, to put it as clearly as possible, it's not just about legality, it's about access. A right doesn't mean anything if you can't afford it or if you can't get access to it. So that's my first definition.


Sharilyn Wester (11:34)

Right. And I also have to say just like a quick intersection with that, another shout out to women of color for being the ones to really be progressives for all uterus- havers and all women, That's incredible.


Cady Moore (11:47)

So the next thing that I want to go over, because we use the term pro-choice, and so just want to get clear about what pro-choice means. Pro-choice is the belief that individuals should have the right to choose whether or not to have an abortion and it focuses specifically on autonomy and the legal right to access abortion. And then you will also hear us use the term anti-choice. You may have also heard the term pro-life, but we do not use the word pro-life because that implies that if you're a pro-choice, you're a pro-death.


Cady Moore (12:16)

Pro-life could also be criticized because the pro-life movement does not address systemic issues like maternal mortality, healthcare, childcare, or support for families. So we will be using the term anti-choice and it is used to describe individuals and groups who oppose access to abortion and they are often associated with advocating for abortion restrictions or bans. So.


Sharilyn Wester (12:39)

Right.


Cady Moore (12:40)

There's a couple of definitions for y'all going into our guest. [Sharilyn: mmhm] And with that, we're going to take a quick break and we will see you in a jiffy.


[Instrumental music]


Cady Moore (13:04)

Alright y'all, as promised, we have a very special guest joining us today to delve a little deeper into our conversation about abortion care and reproductive justice.


Sharilyn Wester (13:12)

[Excitedly] Yes, we are so thrilled to welcome Jill Lissner to the podcast. Welcome, Jill. Jill is a passionate educator. She's a content creator and she works tirelessly to increase conversations around sexual health, identity, reproductive justice, and advocacy on social media.


Cady Moore (13:31)

Welcome to Knee Deep in the Passenger Seat, Jill.


Jill (13:36)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored. Whenever I'm on podcasts and people do introductions, I'm like, stop. I'm like, stop it.


Sharilyn (13:37): Stop! Stop! Keep going though.]


Jill (13:38) I you’re making my head too big. I'm like, so baby. I'm so shy… But seriously. 


Cady Moore (13:50)

I'm shy.


Sharilyn Wester (13:49)

I'm so qualified but I'm so shy.


Jill (13:51)

Yeah, literally. And then I'm like, wait, no, you're not. You're just uncomfortable with people saying good things about you, which is such a human trait I hate to have.


But thank you, I'm so excited to sit here in the app with y'all about all things like sex and reproductive health and all of it, all the things. So I'm so pumped to be here.


Sharilyn Wester (14:11)

Oh my gosh, we are so pleased to have you. and so I think we also have to mention to our listeners that Jill is our first guest, which is really exciting. We're really excited. Okay, so just to kick things off, can you tell us a little bit about your journey? What inspired you to become an educator? Especially an advocate in the realm specifically of sexual health and reproductive justice. What brought that about?


Jill (14:39)

Ugh, yes, I'm like where…where things begin I feel like are always so fuzzy , but I really credit - I've talked about this on social media and even on other podcasts before - I really credit a lot of the way I talk so positively about sex and about reproductive health to my mom and I remember when I was young she straightaway, I always knew like what sex was, what abortion was, what it meant when she was like going to the doctor and when she needed health care. And I even tell people like I went into the voting booth with her when I was younger and she always just took me along for the ride and we always had really deep conversations. 


Jill (15:30)

And she made sure to tell me like if you ever like needs an abortion if you ever get pregnant like you can tell me and talk to me and I'm so lucky to have a mom like that who started these conversations with me and it's so funny because today I am very much like my family thinks of me as like there goes Jill again she's so political she's so social justice warrior,, she's always talking about this stuff and it's like so uncomfortable and then I was like y'all made me this way.


Jill (16:02)

Like I don't know what you're talking about. they gave me a foot and I went a mile with it though. [Sharilyn laughs]  But I'm really like, it is your fault. Like you made me this way. And I'm so grateful and lucky that they did. And my dad was always so supportive as well. He is always someone who was, you know more the funny guy, but he was always so clear about his support for me and my sister and my brother. And also, about just who he was as a person and being so upfront about that. 


Jill (16:23)And then that was just always even in high school, I remember topics would be brought up like reproductive justice. And I was the first one to say something in class. I remember I made a TikTok about this recently, where I got in a fight in health class when we were talking, we got to that page and the textbook about like pregnancy and abortion came up. And someone was like, I don't think abortion is right. I mean, like I got heated and my health teacher was like, you, you need to calm down. And I was like, I don't need to calm down! Like, abortion rights are serious. And like, I was I was like 15. I was always just like angry gal like this. 


Jill (17:11)

And I always felt like a little different too, which is I guess I know you guys have said this is like a neurodivergence podcast where like my neurodivergence came in. I'm like, I always felt a little like I was the weird gal that was like always talking about things that mattered. [Cady: mhm]  But then fast forward to college, freshman year, I got into - content warning for folks listening, stalking, abusive relationship, things along that realm -


Sharilyn Wester (17:31)

I'm sorry.

I'm really sorry.


Jill (17:43)

No, it's totally okay. Thank you so much. It's something that now I don't like saying things happen for a reason because I don't always think that's true. [Sharilyn: Mm-hm] But I do like to say things happen and then they can influence who you are and create who you are and you can do good from them. [Cady: mmhm]So I don't think me being in an abusive relationship and experiencing stalking and sexual harassment was something that I was born to experience, but it is something that really impacted me.


Jill (18:09)

And then after that experience, I joined our campuses’, sexual and gender violence peer education group. And I was just like obsessed. I was so involved in the group. I was a leader of that group. I did everything. And I started doing my work in that, you know, that student organization more than the work I was doing for my major and my classes. 


Jill (18:33) 

And I was set to like,go into the biological sciences and have a career in research. A  couple weeks before graduation, I was like, I can't do this. I can't sit in a lab. Like I had this feeling in the pit of my stomach that I am meant to do more and to be more. [Cady: Mhm]  And then I just was like, no. And I did not respond to my acceptance letter for a PhD program in biology. And I was like, cannot, we can't do this. We will be so unhappy. And then that's when I decided to take a gap year from grad school. Because I knew grad school is something I wanted to do.


Jill (19:31)

I took a gap year from grad school and I worked at the local Planned Parenthood. And I was a medical assistant because I was also an EMT in college. So I had medical experience. And so I knew kind of basic, you know, life support things. And so at Planned Parenthood, I learned how to draw blood, I learned how to do several, you know, different medical things to support patients. And that's also where I learned the most about sexual and reproductive health and reproductive justice. And I still carry that knowledge along with me today, even though I'm no longer working at Planned Parenthood.


Jill (19:52)

I am more into the education, higher up kind of nonprofit space in my regular nine to five work, but I also do work for myself and that's through content creation. So that was a long stretch of events that I explained, but it wasn't one big thing. It was a lot of little moments along the way that were just like, yeah, this is what I'm gonna keep doing. And now I'm doing it. Now I'm living the dream as your favorite white person probably says to.


[Group Laughter]


Cady Moore (20:30)

I think there's something to be said and I recently was on a sex positivity panel that was being held by a student group on campus nearby. And I was asked, all three of the panelists, we were asked like, if someone wants to become a sex educator, how do you do it? And I was like, my undergraduate degree is in Irish history.


Jill (20:52)

Wait, that's really iconic. I didn't know that. That's fucking baller. That is really cool.


Cady Moore (20:58)

It is so - thank you. It is also one of my favorite fun facts because when I say that people are like, I'm sorry, what? And you do what? And I'm like, yes.


Sharilyn Wester (21:10)

It's the best nugget of like a lore drop, essentially, to just disrail the conversation and be like, wait, can we just go back to that?


Jill (21:14)

Yah ummm can we backtrack.. How? What? [Laughs]


Cady Moore (21:18)

I think that so many people go on to become sex educators because they are seeking to either increase access to care for other people or really as a way of seeking justice for themselves and others. And so not to pivot to something, like so serious so fast, but the theme of today's episode is talking about abortion and abortion in the United States. So with the current climate around abortion rights, particularly after the Dobbs decision, are there specific challenges that you've been seeing in your work, either as a student or as a content creator, as an educator?


Cady Moore (21:56)

Cady here with our first aside of the episode, just filling you in on what we mean by Dobbs. So Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health Organization was a landmark decision addressing whether the constitution protects the right to an abortion. In Dobbs, the Supreme Court reviewed the constitutionality of Mississippi's Gestational Age Act, which was a law banning most abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy with exceptions for medical emergencies and fetal abnormalities. In a divided opinion, the court upheld the Mississippi law, thus overturning both Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey, concluding that the Constitution does not protect the right to an abortion.


Cady Moore (22:38)

I know, it’s a big question.


Jill (22:39)

No, it is a big one because it's almost easier to answer sometimes like - where are there not barriers? Where are the barriers not existing? Because there are so many and there were still so many even before Dobbs. I think Dobbs that really woke people up to be like, oh my God, our rights are being taken away and I'm like, wait a second. There have been policymakers and legislators and people on the ground chipping away slowly at this.



Jill (23:14)

This is not, this is big. I know, Dobbs was huge, but it wasn't “the thing.: There was so much before that. And it really stems from when abortion was first, first became really a political thing in the time of Ronald Reagan, it became far more politicized than it ever was before. And of course, when Roe v. Wade was first, you know, put into the law of the land, that also kind of made people blink and think about, you know, what is this action? What is going on?


Jill (23:47) 

But the history of abortion as a political subject is young. And I think a lot of people think that it is this long history, but it's pretty young, whereas the history of abortion as an action, as a medical action, has existed since the beginning of human existence. [Cady: Mmhm] And I think a lot of people fail to recognize that. But anyway, so the barriers are there and it's almost easier to identify where there are not barriers existing. [Cady :Mhm] And I think the biggest one that I see in the general public that tends to have the greatest ripple effect is misinformation and we heard Trump say “post-birth abortions” and “abortions in the nine month.” And saying that without any context, without any further information, without fact checking for millions upon millions of Americans to hear. It is highly impactful and it's something that caused a lot of danger to people getting abortions, to abortion healthcare in general because it increases fear, it increases harmful rhetoric about not only abortions but the people that are getting them.


Jill (24:57)

So misinformation, I feel like that is not only one of the biggest risks, the biggest barriers, but it is something that I try to tackle as well with my content. And that I think is why I think at least social media is one of the most important tools we have right now in a world that is filled with misinformation being shouted all over the place. There is now space for people who have this information and know this information, people who have lived experiences to have a voice. So misinformation is the biggest thing I think all of us can work on and take a stab at.


Cady Moore (25:33)

So can we just take a minute to clear up some misconceptions about abortion?


Jill (25:38)

I have a lot of information because I worked in the state of Pennsylvania and for those listening that maybe are outside of the US or don't know, in the United States, abortion legislation is very much on a state-by-state basis and this was even that way before Dobbs was overturned because I was working in clinic at Planned Parenthood before the Dobbs decision. I said Dobbs was overturned - before Roe v. Wade was overturned and the Dobbs decision - correcting myself there. 


Jill (26:07) 

So what we would have to do if someone came in and they were like, I want an abortion. In the state of Pennsylvania, there's something called the Abortion Control Act or the 24-hour consent law where they would have to watch a video and then get some materials that I put in big quotes for people listening, “educational materials” about abortion that kind of talk about fetal development and can be pretty traumatizing for people that are seeking an abortion. 

[Cady : Mmmh, yea] 


Jill (26:21)

And it's essentially with the goal in mind of changing their mind. And then they have to watch the video. For us, it was our medical director speaking and kind of giving details about what both the medication abortion or an end clinic abortion entailed, the percentage of them working, how safe they were, and just all of this information, which I totally get, but then it's like, okay, now go away and wait 24 hours and then you can come back.


Jill (26:54)

It's interesting though, because in the state of Pennsylvania, someone can go to New Jersey or New York, as well as I believe, Delaware, where these are not the laws. So there's a lot of access to other places. And even with these strong restrictions that are in place in Pennsylvania, people from places like Ohio travel to Western Pennsylvania pretty frequently because the legislation is even better for people seeking abortion in Pennsylvania than it is in some other states in what we would call like abortion deserts, [Cady : Mhm]  where there is no access within a reasonable distance to get an abortion or get even reproductive healthcare. There's contraceptive deserts as well. [Sharilyn: Mmhm]


Jill (27:37)

Yeah, some of the biggest misconceptions are about the safety and there's a lot of people that say, you know, “after an abortion happens, your chances of severe mental health diagnoses or psychosis are increased tenfold or so many percent”, whereas that's a lie. That is not true. [ Cady: Mhm] Some people do experience some intense emotions after because they were pregnant and now they're not. Or maybe they had some traumatic experience leading up to this.


Jill (28:11)

But a big emotion that people don't talk about after an abortion is relief, [Cady:Mhm] which is what a lot of people tend to feel as well. Another one is that getting... abortions increases your risk of cancer, which is absolutely not true. I've heard people talk about this quite a bit and often some of the crisis pregnancy centers spread this information as well and pose as fake abortion clinics. So this is something that's [Cady: Yeah] actively being combated by people too. But yeah, the misinformation is wild. [Sharilyn: Yeah, and a problem]. Yeah.


Cady Moore (28:48)

Well, and crisis, I'm so glad you brought up crisis pregnancy centers because I just, I just taught a class on like abortion 101 for college students. And one of the pieces that I talked about was media literacy, which is not something that I necessarily teach often as a sex educator, but it is, it is worth teaching. [Jill: Mhm] And crisis pregnancy centers are the perfect example of needing to have media literacy skills to like, look further past what you're seeing on their billboard and figure out, who is actually paying for this? Who is funding this? And, know, I don't have the facts, so I'll probably put this in an aside, but previously California was one of the few, if only, states that required crisis pregnancy centers to disclose on the outside of their building that they are not providing medical care, that they are not licensed to provide medical care. And that was recently changed.


Cady Moore (29:43)

Hi, it's me again with an aside. So the law that I'm talking about here is the Reproductive Fact Act, which was a California law that was passed in 2015 requiring crisis pregnancy centers - or CPCs - to display written notices about abortion access and post disclosures that they have no licensed medical providers. In 2018, the Supreme Court ruled that this law violated the First Amendment. A similar law in Hawaii was struck down by a district court. However, in July 2023, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker signed SB1909 into law, also known as the Deceptive Practices of Limited Services Pregnancy Centers Act. This law bars crisis pregnancy centers from using misinformation, deceptive practices, or misrepresentation in order to interfere with access to abortion services or emergency contraception. 


[Return to episode]


Cady (30:27)

And so now they're no longer required to disclose that information. So it goes right along with the spread of misinformation online by anti-choice organizations and a lot of the information that you can get online. Like when I Googled abortion facts pro-choice, “pro-life across America” was the first one that popped up.


Jill (30:46)

It is scary times in a lot of places, but yeah, the crisis pregnancy centers will also, for people that don't know, will purposely place themselves next to real valid medical clinics, often those that offer abortion. So it's important to really read the fine print of some things because it can be scary and they can kind of lure you in and it's not fair and it's absolutely disgusting. But yeah, that is why that is like that is why people like us are here, telling you and informing you because it's important people know.


Cady Moore (31:19)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I will say that I know that not every clinic has the capacity to offer escorts now, but if you are someone who is seeking an abortion, you are more than welcome to ask your clinic if they offer clinic escorts. They will meet you at your car and they will walk you into the facility to make sure that you end up in the right place. You are seeking a legal and for now, in some places, protected medical service and you deserve to have the care that you need. So ask for help and yeah, and you'll get it. Now, Sharilyn had a really great question that I wanna let her phrase because when she asked it, I was like, that's a good one. So Sharilyn, you wanna?


Sharilyn Wester (32:21)

Yeah. So for me, I think one thing I noticed when we are in the current political zeitgeist that we are, where abortion and reproductive care are kind of at the forefront of what people are talking about, I found that when advocates for bodily autonomy and reproductive justice try and win over kind of the understanding of anti choice individuals, oftentimes when they're talking about people- or uterus havers who are in need of abortions- they kind of go to the extremes where they're talking about cases of incest and rape or underage pregnancy medical emergencies. 


Sharilyn (33:47)

You know I don't know if you do a lot of TikTok as I definitely do, but kind of around election time - [Jill: I partake in the TikTok] Yeah, you dabble! But was there were significant amounts of women sharing their stories online about needing to get reproductive care or needing an abortion because of a medical emergency so oftentimes we see people who are like left of center or people who are for

bodily autonomy and reproductive justice try and win over anti-choice folks with this kind of rhetoric and with these cases. 


Sharilyn (33:19)

Do you think this approach in presenting these extremes, do you think that helps or does that hurt kind of the broader cause of bodily autonomy and reproductive justice? Especially for those who are seeking access to abortion care simply because they don't wish to be pregnant. For whatever reason, they can't afford it, they just don't want to. It's not the right time. Maybe they are not ready. Maybe they don't have the proper partner. Yeah, do you think this helps or hurts that?


Jill (33:52)

As we saw on the last election the Democratic Party ate that shit up they were like, ooh, it's a special case. They clawed at that immediately. And I'm gonna answer this with some nuance in mind and I want other people to have nuance in mind because it's important to note that abortion is never black and white.


Jill (34:13)

One person who gets an abortion will not have the exact same story as another person or the person after that or the person after that. It is never the same. And I think in society as human beings, we are looking for, we're looking for black and white. We're always looking for is that right or is that wrong? And I think a big thing with abortion is  - for some people - it presents a gray area because of these varied situations and that makes people uncomfortable. And I get that. I feel like I have a really strong sense of justice as neurodivergent people tend to. I have a very strong sense of justice. [Sharilyn laughs : yes]


Jill (34:55)

And I am always like, and me and my therapist talk about this all the time where I'm like, that person really should blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, well, should they? Do you think they should? Where is the “should” coming from? So all of that to say, hold nuance in this situation and with abortion education and talking about abortions in general, because nuance is important.


Jill (35:18)

All of that to say, I don't think it is helpful because that is really number one, you know, pigeonholing ourselves in the conversation about abortion, because most cases are not like that. And then we ostracize the people who don't have experiences like that. But then also, we may put unwanted attention onto people who have had those experiences, because those are real human beings as well, [Cady: Right, mhm] and they might have certain feelings about their abortion, right? And I think it's important with nuance to say, not every single person who had an abortion went out of that clinic skipping and jumping and ecstatic about their decision. 


Jill (35:53)

It is almost never an easy decision for people, whether it is in the cases of rape or incest or whether it's just, I don't want to have a child right now. And I think going black and white on any side is reductionist, especially in the fight of abortion. The extremes are not helpful to amplify because what's important is that we tell the real stories of people who have had these experiences. And the real stories are people who have been raped or who have experienced incest, as well as the people who are like, I have five kids already and I can't do another. Or I have hyperemesis and if I continue with this pregnancy, I can't see myself thriving and continuing to be a human being that functions in society. Or I barely have enough money to support myself. How am I supposed to support a child? Or simply, I don't want to be pregnant right now, period. And the number one thing is no one deserves an answer from that person as to why they did what they did with their body and their medical decision.


Jill (37:06)

And humans, as a collective, we need to sit in that discomfort that we're not always going to know why and know people's story, but know and trust that they made the best decision for them and they did what was right and that we are going to give you the tools and the education and the knowledge and the support to make that best decision. And that was a really long winded answer to say, I do not think it's helpful when we when we really hyper focus on rape and incest, [Sharilyn : Yeah] but it's more helpful if we say that is something that does happen, but also hear all these other stories that happen too that matter, that deserve to be told, and that are also valid.


Sharilyn Wester (37:51)

Mm hmm. Absolutely. 


Jill (37:56)

I will jump off my soap box


Sharilyn: (38:00)

No, please get back on,  that's what you're here for. We want to put you on a soapbox because yeah, I agree, I think sometimes when we become excessively hyperbolic when when we talk about instances or medical emergencies where abortion is necessary, sometimes I think it kind of takes the focus off of the fact that it is at large, obviously, a uterus havers rights issue, and all of the spectrums of choice that comes with that. And so, yeah, no, thank you for that answer. That was really illuminating.


Cady Moore (38:32)

For our listeners who want to get involved, what steps can they take to support access to abortion care and reproductive justice?


Jill (38:41)

Ooh, I love that. That's a good question because I think everybody can do something. And I talked about this recently in a, like some - I made a video about small actions I took that day and things I did that were impactful, but very small. I said things like, you know, I recycled; I listened to a podcast about the court case that just happened, US versus Skremetti; I shared this information to my story; I texted a friend who is in need, right? All of those small things have ripple effects to the greater existence, the greater community that we live because as humans, I believe that we're all connected in some way, somehow.


Jill (39:24)

So I think it depends on somebody's energy and resources and what they can do. If you have a couple bucks to donate, money is big and that's always going to be something that's impactful. If you save some spare change whenever you got the end of the month, that helps people. Iff you give it to local abortion funds specifically, helps people get maybe like abortion care packages some organizations make that are filled with like blankets and heating pads and some like over-the-counter pain relief medication. Or it helps people get plane tickets, boarding, lodging - things they need to do now more than ever because abortion isn't accessible to them locally. 


Jill (40:06) Something else people can do is like you were mentioning, clinic escort is something you can get involved with locally at your local clinic. And something I think that is going to be one of the most impactful things that people can do is have a conversation about it, talk about it, bring it up, share it on your Instagram story. If you have 500 followers and like 50 people see your story or however many people, tat is still something that's still going to get something clicking up in that noggin, right?


Jill (40:32) 

And being like, wow, I never thought of that. Wow, that's something I never considered before. And then they might pass that on to somebody else. And then that person might pass that on, right? So spreading information, sharing things, reading, educating yourself so that you can better educate others is so important. Bring it up in at work, even if your work isn't relevant. Right? It and everything ties back to, in my belief, reproductive justice and seeking equitable healthcare.


Jill (41:01) So bring it up wherever you are, even if it's like, you know, at grandma's house, you're like, grandma, have you heard of this new law in this state about abortion? And grandma might be like, I like, I really don't care. Bring me my porridge or whatever grandma's eat, right? 


Sharilyn Wester (41:19)

Classic grandma.


Jill (41:11)

Yeah, but maybe then she goes to her - my grandma used to love playing Mahjong. My grandma was a Mahjong champion. [Sharilyn: Mine too!] May her memory be a blessing as we say in Judaism. [Sharilyn: Mmmh]  But she was a Mahjong champ. And maybe she would go over to Mahjong and be like, my granddaughter started talking to me about this abortion nonsense. What do you guys think about that? And then they start a whole conversation, right? And like, you just don't know how big your impact can actually be if you talk about it. 


Jill (41:45 )

And voices are huge now more than ever when there's censorship online, when people are trying to take away nuance and conversation from things that really need it. So the best thing is donating and giving your money, giving your time, but the next best thing is talking about it and having conversation and educating yourself and others if you can.


Cady Moore (42:06)

The more we talk about it, the more normalized the conversation becomes and the more people realize that this is just routine medical care. It's shorter than a dentist visit.


Jill (42:16)

Exactly. Literally. Literally.


Sharilyn Wester (42:20)

And also follow your sex educators because you guys obviously are able to sift through a lot more misinformation and disinformation than the general public so follow your sex educators for relevant information


Cady Moore (42:32)

Hell yeah, let us do the work for you so that you don't have to do it all the time. I know you're tired. I know. Go ahead and rest. [Sharilyn: Mm-hmm] So let's take a quick break and then let's talk about some polar bears.


[Instrumental Music]


Jill (42:46)

I'm ready to fuck shit up about polar bears. I'm ready to -


Cady Moore (42:49)

[Laughs] Okay. All right. Hell yeah.


Sharilyn Wester (42:55)

We are about to devastate the general public with polar bear facts.


Cady Moore (42:58)

I mean, it is truly devastating, I'm gonna be honest.


Jill (43:00)

No polar bears are devastating but also I'm like this is where it inspires people to be like wow I love polar bears and now I'm gonna get involved in climate activism because of the polar bears [Sharilyn: Yeah] and like whatever inspires you if it is like I there are just some random animals that people just feel so drawn to like some people like freaking like-


Sharilyn:  (43:36)

I think those people are called furries. Them too!


Cady (43:37)

[Laughs] We love them.


Jill (43:40)

Them too. Them too. We love furries. We love people that engage in pup play. We love all of them. 


Sharilyn Wester (43:45)

Absolutely, yes.


Cady Moore (43:50 )

We love it. There is no kink shaming on this podcast.


Sharilyn Wester (43:55)

Not at all.


Jill(43:58)

But people like will find a specific animal and hyperfixate on them and then they are like “I’m going to change the world because I’m obsessed with red Pandas” and I’m like, I love that for you.


Cady Moore (44:07)

I love that for you and I love that for the rest of the world. I was so excited to see this on your onboarding form because I… I fall asleep to an animal encounter podcast, which is a nice way of saying I listen to a podcast about animal attacks to fall asleep. And so I love learning about bears in particular. Yeah, shout out “Tooth and Claw”. Just throwing it out there. But I...


Jill (44:36))

Yes.

I have to listen now, my god.


Cady Moore (44:37)

It's it's really good and it's hosted by a wildlife biologist. So I love, love, love learning about bears. Please speak on the polar bear.


Jill (44:45)

Sick.

Yeah.


Cady Moore (44:46)

Tell us everything.


Jill (44:40)

Yes, but polar bears are really interesting because everyone's like, there's like brown bears and there's black bears and there's polar bears. And I'm like, no, polar bears are soooo different than like grizzlies and black bears. And as someone who grew up in the Northeast, like black bears were just like a very regular occurrence everywhere. Everyone - like I live in Pennsylvania now where there really aren't black bears. And so everyone leaves their trash out at night. And when I first moved here, I was like, why is everyone's trash out? I was like, the bears are going to come and get them because it was just normal to like, kind of see a black bear in the backyard in New Jersey.


Sharilyn Wester (45:14)

I love that you assumed the role of the town crier being like, the bears are coming!


Jill (45:18)

Literally, no, literally I was like, and then I was like, wait, like there are not there are just not black. They're not really black bears here. [Cady: Yeah]. I think there was one sighting in the last like year maybe of one that kind of got got a little far away from its from its home base. But they really just don't, don't frequent these parts of Pennsylvania. But polar bears are so different because they are significantly bigger. They are considered like marine mammals because they swim.


Cady Moore (45:50)

Yes, I was so glad you said that! I was going to say I was like, [excitedly] “It’s because they're marine animals!”, yeah continue!


Jill (46:00)

Yeah, they're considered, yeah, they're no, no, no, they're considered marine mammals, whereas like grizzly bears and, and black bears behave in such drastically different ways. And also, grizzly bears don't really go - or I mean - polar bears don't really go through what's called torpor or which is like, like kind of like hibernation essentially, but bears have kind of like this modified hibernation. Whereas polar bears don't do that, which is really something else that's really fascinating. And then polar bears also for people that know like they're hikers or they're in nature, it's kind of like if it's black, fight back. If it's brown, lay down. And then if it's white, good night. Because it's like if you see a polar bear, like you're dead.


Cady Moore (46:43)

Okay, as a toothie, a diehard fan of Tooth and Claw podcasts, I could not in good conscience leave this information here without offering some further insight. First of all, the first thing that you should do when you see a bear, always, is to grab your bear spray. And you should only play dead with a grizzly if it's actually mauling you. If you're being mauled by a black bear, it's probably trying to eat you, so you definitely should fight back. But, all this to be said, I'm not a wildlife biologist, please, go check out Tooth and Claw podcast and say hi to the guys for me to get more information. Also, we are going to cite a TikTok creator coming up. Her name is Cecilia Blomdahl and we will link her in the show notes.


Jill (47:23)

Because they're out for blood. Usually if you see a polar bear though - and this is where the conservation efforts come in - it's because they're looking for food. They go close to people because they're looking for resources. And then people get scared and then - my god I don't know if anyone has seen that girl, because we partake in TikTok here, if anyone has seen I forget her name - but she she lives in Svalbard the island off of the North Pole and she's like “and then I put on my coat and I get my shotgun just in case we see a polar bear”  and I'm always like “What?” and it's insane and then there are like polar bear signs up there. It's bananas to me.


Cady Moore (48:09)

Svalbard is like one of my dream destinations, but I will have to bring someone else to man the shotgun because no thank you.


Jill (48:10)

It's like she leaves her house and she's just like, and then I get my shotgun and I'm like… we need to tag her TikTok because I'm so forgetting but that's like just a reality for some people because polar bears are everyone's like, “if fluffy if why not friend if friend shape?” and that's because they are so cute and the babies are very cute .


Jill (48:35)

They often exist, they exist very like solitary animals. Except for when they go and like - there's this one person on TikTok also, I've just sat and like watched this person's live. She lives in kind of like the northernmost points of Alaska. And she just records, she'll be sitting in our car and it's like all these polar bears are just like having a snack. They're just joined together eating because they will come together when there's food resources and they'll like have a way of like asking each other if they can share.


Jill (49:05)

But it's, they live in just like these crazy like, I'm far more interested in cold, like Arctic environments than I am in like hot environments. because I just think they're so like fascinating. The way animals have to adapt to live in like below freezing temperatures constantly is, is insane.

But yeah, polar bears, I will just sit and like read polar bear lore and like get into a Wikipedia hole for like far too long. And I find them fascinating.


Sharilyn Wester (49:33)

Polar bear lore is so good.


Jill (49:37)

Yeah, and polar bear attacks are like scary. I'll read about those too, because I'm like, that is not. Yeah, that's not an animal like you want to fuck with. Like with a black bear, like I have like, because also we see black bears a lot. I spend a lot of time in Vermont, my family has a home in Vermont. And we see black bears up there all the time as well. And there are times where I have just like walked outside and there's a black bear there and he just kind of looks at me. And then he keeps eating. Like they are very used to humans. They don't care. Whereas with polar bears, they'll fuck your shit up. They'll rock your shit. Like don't. Like if I ever saw a polar bear, I am like - 


Cady (50:33)

High- tailing it out of there, calling your mom to say i love you!


Jill (50:34) Literally, I'm like, it is not on site. Like you can have all my belongings.


Sharilyn Wester (50:38)

Gosh, I love that. I also think it's an interesting point you make on the difference between, obviously, the ecology that belongs specifically to colder climates versus warmer climates. I'm originally from Canada, and now I'm living in the deep south of America. So the ecology is very, very different and actually was quite a culture shoc to endure coming here knowing that same thing like - you don't have to leave, know, people leave their trash out and also armadillos are a real animal?  I thought that was made up. So I totally get it. 


Sharily (51:05)

On the topic of animals. So they say dog is a man's best friend, but as you've worked in a wildlife sanctuary, what animal would you actually say is man's BFF?

You listen to some good ones like raccoons, squirrels, bunny, like let's go. Like I'm talking about rodent, “It is friend shaped so it could be friend.”


Jill (51:29)

Yeah, it's hard to say like man's best friend because it's like there's companionship. But then there's also animals that greatly depend on humans.


Sharilyn (51:31)

Ooooh


Jill (51:34)

[Laughs] I love that “ooooh”. Because Humans have come in and fucked with with whole environments that like there are some animals that really depend on human existence and one of my other special interests - I was talking about - I was in the car the other day in Philly and this kind of gives a hint to the animal it is… 

I just started going off and she and she was like and - this is like my supervisee the person I supervise at work - “pigeons are an animal that were first”....[laughter] your reaction is everything.


Cady Moore (52:06)

[Excitedly] JUSTICE FOR PIGEONS!


Jill (52:07)

Literally justice for pigeons. Pigeons were domesticated by humans. Pigeons are so intelligent. And then humans decided, actually, we don't like you. And then they threw them out, not physically, not actually threw them out, but threw them out on the street. And now pigeons grew this dependency for humans. And then humans said, goodbye, shoo shoo. Pigeons and seagulls, I would argue too, depending on the environment, have some of the greatest dependencies on human beings.

where it's like a relationship where the person is kind of chasing after them, but it's like, want you, but you don't want me back. And that is pigeons, so hard.


Jill (52:51)

Where it's a mutual - the only mutual relationship I would say would be really domesticated animals, like dogs and horses. Horses not as much anymore because horses aren't really needed for transportation and tasks as much as they used to be, because the industrial revolution of course. I would say most human animal relationships - I actually did a research project on human animal relationships in a rural town in Costa Rica. I did like a short-term study abroad program in the Guanacaste region of Costa Rica, and they have some incredible nature. But in a lot of the rural areas, they see a lot of the animals as, you know, pests rather than appreciation. [Cady: Mmmh] 


Jill (52:37)

Whereas in the touristy areas in Monteverde, where it's like, you know, their whole economy is structured off of people coming to see the different kind of birds, like birders coming from all over the world to see like the the three wattled bell bird and like the quetzal. Whereas in the rural areas, they're like… this isn't as significant to me. And so it's really, it's something that's really interesting depending on the ecosystem you go to, how people will react to the animals that are there. But yeah, I would say most of them, most of the relationships are like, “you depend on me, but I think you're a pest” as opposed to, you know, “we live in this ecosystem and we're all connected.” And I think if more people saw animals and nature, like we are all connected and, and, you know, depend on each other, there would be a greater appreciation.


Jill (54:34)

But yeah, I'm very much an environment like nature sustainability person, because it also is connected to reproductive health in a lot of ways, [Cady: Yeah!] Because in sustainability is, there are some central pillars to sustainability.

In my college, I was a sustainability studies minor in college and my sustainability studies professor is like clapping behind the scenes.[Sharilyn laughs]

 But there are some, there are some like sustainability pillars and one of those like pillars is, you know, women's rights and in supporting women, in addition to like, you know, the economy and the environment. 


Jill (55:14)

And all of those pillars fall on each other because when the environment is, you know - climate change is more looked at and paid attention to and the environment is supported. The economy is more supported as well. Then when the economy is more supported, women and people with uteruses and marginalized people are able to get the resources and healthcare that they need and have more financial stability and everything is just interconnected with one another, especially- that's why sustainability is such like an up and coming field for people - especially those within reproductive justice fields, looking at the way climate change and climate activism impacts us within the sex education field is huge. But there is someone who coined the term “environmental feminism” and “ecofeminism”, is actually the term. So definitely do your research on that and see how it's connected. And there is beauty, yeah, there is beauty in ecofeminism for sure that we could all benefit from


Cady Moore (56:16)

Well, thank you so much. we wrap up, is there any message that you would like to leave with our listeners today?


Jill (56:25)

Oh my god, I feel like going back something I'm holding that I said earlier was that idea of nuance and how there's nuance in everything. Be critical of everything you see and really take a step back before getting in that comment section on that TikTok video or, you know, sending someone a message online. Be really critical and think with nuance. And I think that is one of the best things that we can do in this world is think “there are people in this world that exist that are different from me and they don't fit the exact image I might place onto them.”


Jill (57:04)

And that includes queer people, trans people, black people, indigenous people, immigrants, disabled people, especially disabled people who are often left out of the conversations, especially within reproductive justice. It's so important that we hold space for them and we don't make assumptions about people and we approach every situation and every topic with nuance because nothing in this world - and this is probably the thing I say the most - nothing in this world, at least I believe, is black and white. And if anyone is telling you that something is black and white or at an extreme, question that, really question that because it's very unlikely. 


Jill (57:39)

And also of course, like holding nuance for people, but also just truly believing, finding your why, like why do you feel this way? Why are you so passionate about this one thing, right? And I think we can all kind of connect to this idea. Even… I have been so angry about the election lately and I really had to center myself with my why and being like, “I want everybody to have rights and access to what they need to live and not only live but thrive.” And that includes Democrats, Republicans, centrists, atheists - people who are from all walks of life - I think, deserve the resources to thrive in this world. And I think there are a lot of people that want that, but they don't have the tools to either express or find the language to say that in the way that they want to. And I think the more that we kind of go after that and remember that why, we can help people get that information, get that language, get those resources, and we can more be on the same page.


Jill (58:51) 

And then my other thing I was going to say before, which I think is interesting for your podcast specifically, and it's often my hottest take-


Cady (58:55)

Oh I love a hot take!


Sharilyn (58:56)

Oh my gosh yes


Jill (58:57)

It is my hot take and I'll leave people on this to kind of be maybe a little angry with me or a little like, “how could you? How could you, Jill sex educator, reproductive justice, social justice warrior say this?” and one of my biggest hot takes is that we should be including men in our conversations.


Sharilyn Wester (59:23)

Absolutely.


Cady Moore (59:24)

Hard agree, hard agree.


Jill (59:24)

Yes I know, I don’t hate all men. I said it, I don’t hate the men. And maybe that’s cause I live with one, I do.But men, we coexist with them. We are connected with them. We also exist among trans men and queer men and non-binary men and men of color. Men also exist within all of these intersections. They are harmed by capitalism, by patriarchy, [Cady: Yep]  by racism, by homophobia, by transphobia. They are harmed by all of these systems as well. Maybe not to the same - 


Cady Moore (1:00:08)

Toxic masculinity ruins it for everyone, y'all. Even the men. Period. No one is having a good time.


Jill (1:00:21)

period, period, everybody. But the men are somebody we should be inviting to some of our causes, not all of them - because I think a lot of queer people have been harmed, women, people of all different marginalized identities have been harmed often by the cis white man. And I think they have every right to be angry and that's not even a question. Be angry and want to have spaces for themselves. But I think in a lot of cases when we exclude men from a lot of from a lot of spaces and a lot of conversations, we're not only ostracizing them, but we're ostracizing the movement that we're fighting for. 


Cady Moore (1:00:49)

Mm-hmm. And alienating. We're alienating 50 % of the population. And it's 50 % who, if we are able to treat them as accomplices and allies,[Jill: Yes]  we'll be able to access more spaces that we can't because of the nature of the patriarchy. [Jill: Yes]  Like we need men as our allies and as our accomplices. And if we continue to treat them like they are the problem, then they are going to feel like the problem. And we're digging ourselves into a deeper hole.


Cady Moore (1:01:12)

And that is something that like, will go on the record to say that I regret about my twenties and the way that my feminism manifested was I absolutely was one of the like, “men are trash” people. And you know, when I say that now, yeah, well, and when I say that now, I know that what I mean by that is the patriarchy is trash.


Jill (1:01:34)

But I think it's fair, and I want to amplify what you said where you're like, men are trash, because women and non men, like to - we need to find a better term as a society for non men - but non men, everyone who's not a man, often has been hurt by men. I have been hurt by men, and I think people deserve to have a reaction to that, and often it's visceral. And I'm like, if you are like, fuck all men, then like, fuck all men, for now.


Cady Moore (1:02:00)

Mm-hmm.


Jill (1:02:01)

But also, let's, like, you deserve to heal. 


Cady: (1:02:05)

Let’s work towards healing. 


Jill (1:02:07)

Yes, you deserve to heal in a space that makes sense for you. And when you're ready, let's talk about how we can bring men back into the space so we don't ostracize them. And they can be, like you said, our accomplices and allies in the work we're doing. Because we can't do everything alone. We're all connected. And something that is huge that I've been learning about from someone on Instagram and other socials. Her name is Marley Liss and she talks a lot about restorative justice and how some people are like abusers -who are often men - abusers. We should be having holding conversation and holding space and bringing them back into some of these conversations because if we shun them and say, you're worthless and you deserve to rot in a jail cell for what you did, they resent that and they move further away from the cause and the mission and whatever it might be. [Cady: Mhm] So when we bring them a little closer and we say, you fucked up and… let's talk about it. [Cady:Mhm]  Let's call you in. Let's do some restorative justice practices. We can make bigger impacts [Cady:Mhm] than shunning people completely away and telling them that they're worthless pieces of shit.


Jill (1:03:23)

Because sometimes that might be true, but also sometimes people need a conversation and to be called in rather than be called out and shunned. And that goes, that is so true with calling people in on so many different systems of oppression that exist [Cady: Mhm] and being able to be like, “hey, you messed up on that, but also come over here and talk to me about it, and let's work on this together and make the world a better place together and show people how like you fucked up and it's not okay to say that or do that or whatever and let's keep moving and let's make this part of the mission.”


Jill (1:04:01)

 I also wanna say there's so much nuance to this too because not everybody is ready for that. People's wounds are still fresh and like that is fair too. Not everybody has to be involved in this process but if you feel ready and prepared, and like you can do it, then I would encourage you to push your boundaries. But also if you have just been harmed, focus on you and you do not have to focus on this cause. But yeah, that's my hot take that I wanted to bring with the nuance conversation.


Sharilyn Wester (1:04:30)

I love that. No, I love that. I love that.


Cady Moore (1:04:32)

Yes, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Jill, for sharing all of your insights and nuance and passion with us today. This was phenomenal. I mean, I knew it would be, but I'm so excited.


Jill (1:04:45)

I'm so grateful. Thank you. I… any day I'll yap about this stuff. I love it. And I love talking to people that share the passion. So it was, it was such an honor and I had I had so much fun and time really flew for sure.


Sharilyn Wester (1:04:58)

Absolutely. Thank you for the great work that you're doing. We appreciate it.


Jill (1:04:49)

Of course. And thank you guys for the work you do too, because this is also part of starting the conversation. Even if one person listens or a million people listen, like that's something and that matters.


Sharilyn Wester (1:05:06)

Great. Right.


Cady Moore (1:05:07)

Thank you so much.


[Instrumental Music]


Cady Moore (1:05:17)

Okay, that was truly phenomenal. I feel like we could have yapped for so long. There was just so much there that I wanted to dig into and talk more about. [Sharilyn: Oh my gosh] But thank you again so much, Jill. Again, you can find her at @SexEdPrincess. But today we have our recurring segment, “Don't Get Me Started”


[Sharilyn makes air noise sound]


Cady (1:05:43)

And I will say we kind of cheated. because we're supposed to surprise each other with what we're talking about, but Sharilyn suggested- 


Sharilyn Wester (1:05:43)

This one couldn't be stopped.


Cady (1:05:57)

it couldn't be stopped. There was no avoiding it. 


Sharilyn (1:06:00)

This was absolutely necessary.


[Laugher]


Cady (1:06:07)

So. I am going to yap about Wicked. [Sharilyn: Yeah lets do it] Well, we are going to yap about Wicked. Actually, what I want to hear, Sharilyn, [Sharilyn: oh gosh] I want to hear you talk about how sapphic wicked is.


Sharilyn Wester (1:06:32)

Um, ok Absolutely. [Cady: sorry I put you on the spot] I think it's no, you're totally fine. I feel like the opposites attract trope is present here. I feel like the enemies to - question mark - “friends??” trope is also here. And they were historically they were roommates.


Sharilyn Wester (1:06:53)

The forced proximity trope is there. The growth from ambivalent ninny to social justice warrior through exploration, through female friendship is there. Female friendship heavy on the “friendship”, quote unquote. So I feel like there are so many sapphic undertones as well as if you were a queer person - the way they are interacting for me is very aligned sometimes with how I interact with other queers or especially people I'm interested in.[Cady: Mmh]  And so I think there's just so many overlaps and I enjoyed it. And obviously, if you want to call them friends, call them friends. But as queer folk, we're going to see our representation where we can get it in blockbuster movies, okay?


[Laughter]


Cady (1:07:43)

Well, and I thought that you were-  I'm not gonna lie -  I thought that you were talking about the way that they act on the press tour Is and I was like, if you partake in tik-tok - [Sharilyn: If you indulge] - if you indulge If you have seen Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo in interviews together..It is just like so.. It's.. hmmmm… it just, it makes me miss you so much.


Sharilyn Wester (1:08:04)

It's so refreshing. Awe I know because like that's us and I know every time I see it, I'm like, that's so refreshing because I think obviously, when people go into interview - or into press junkets like that - they have rehearsed questions and all of that. But it was really funny because before the movie's release, everyone was kind of critiquing how like emotional they were being and I'm like, “okay, you have two theater kids in a room doing like one of the biggest projects that you can get as a theater kid. Like this is one of the biggest musicals of the past two decades.” Of course, they're going to get emotional. That's a passion project with two people who are genuinely like seemingly great, great folks, you know. [Cady: Mhm] So I loved seeing that. I think seeing the female friendship represented behind the screen and in interviews was just like, ugh yes, this is how I am with my friends. Like I will, I will reach over and hold your little finger any day.


Cady (1:09:03)

Eeep eep!


Sharilyn (1:09:04)

We're holding, she's holding my finger through the screen.


Cady:  (1:09:05)

My ET finger?


[Laughter]


Sharilyn Wester (1:09:19)

I like how it's coming out of the blanket. For those who are listening, Cady's wearing a blanket around her right now, she’s really cozy.


Cady Moore (1:09:17)

I'm wearing a blanket because I took off my sweatshirt.


Sharilyn:(1:09:22)

But her little finger came out trembling for me to hold across the screen.


[Laughter]


Cady: (1:09:26)

Oh my god okay [Sharilyn: You tell me, go off] I feel like you, well, I feel like you unintentionally delivered a hot take there because you I don't remember the exact phrase but You used.. You said “ambivalent to social justice warrior” - I'm describing Glinda - and I think a lot of people are gonna be like “what the fuck are you talking about?”


Sharilyn: (1:09:45)

Ambivalent ninny. Yes, so


Cady: (1:09:46)

Ambivalent ninny. Yes, so I -  first of all, I have not seen part two since, like I haven't seen the second act of Wicked since I last saw it on stage, which I think was in like 2008. So I don't remember it clearly, but I've been having a lot of fun reading people's responses to part one who have not seen part two. [Sharilyn: So good] And this is not to say that anybody's takes are wrong. It's just interesting, but, what I have found really interesting is knowing what happens in part two, we have Elphaba who is super fiery. I don't know her sign. Is she a Sag? I don’t know. know Cynthia Arivo's a Capricorn, Ariana Grande's a Cancer, but - 


Sharilyn Wester (1:10:42)

I'm going to claim her as first Sagittarius on behalf of me and MJ, my other favorite Sagittarius so…


Cady Moore (1:10:46)

Okay, I'm in. And then my sister, my sister Izzy is also a Sag. [Sharilyn: Absolutely] So I'm gonna, yeah, we can claim Elphaba as a Sag. So super passionate, super fiery and has very, very strong power. But as we can see, has little to no like social graces. Whereas we have Galinda, who is someone who is very, very good at navigating social scenarios and politics and kind of beep boopin' and hair tossing her way through the world, but she doesn't have the power or the passion or the drive, which is why she sings about them doing things in tandem and it's just… uughh… it’s such.. I can’t… oh  my god, I can’t till we get for good, but it's just such a great message about how collaboration is really the only way forward and that none of us can do any of this alone and... I don't know. It just feels like a very fitting way to wrap up a very powerful episode of Knee Deep in the Passenger's Seat to talk about two very different humans working.. humans, witches?...working in tandem to make change. So, yeah.


Sharilyn Wester (1:11:56)

Yeah, navigating politics and all of that with passion and through the [sing song voice] power of friendship and maybe a little bit of lesbianism.


[Laughter]


Cady (1:11:58)

Yeah baby, as God intended, 


Sharilyn (1:12:00)

Absolutely, no, I love that. I was very moved by Wicked. I actually took both of my little girls who are 10 and 6 to see it this past weekend and they were equally moved. And the one thing my 10 year old said when she came out of it was she really loved the messages about prejudice and how you really have to get to know people and basically not count them out for reasons you might already have in your head for whatever reason. To see for me the impact obviously lore wise that Wicked has had as a, you know, musical theater kid, as a queer person, as a person who, you know, was very bullied when I was younger… to see it land in a very similar way, maybe a little watered down, but with the next generation was so special and just amazing.


Cady Moore (1:13:09)

A huge thank you to Jill Lissner for joining us today and for sharing her insights and her expertise. Jill, you are doing incredible work. I'm so excited to keep learning from you and we are so grateful for you. And thank you for being our first guest on the pod.


Sharilyn Wester (1:1321)

[Excitedly] Yay! So good! And for all of you listening, of course, thank you for riding with us through the tough topics and for showing up with open minds and open hearts.


Cady Moore (1:13:31)

If you want to keep the conversation going, can give us a follow on Instagram @KneeDeepPodcast. Our DMs are open for thoughts, stories, or questions. We would love to hear from you.


Sharilyn Wester (1:13:41)

And if this episode resonated with you, share it with a friend, leave us a review, or shout us out on social media. Every little bit helps us keep doing what we do and platforming these amazing individuals.


Cady Moore (1:13:54)

Until next time, stay curious and remember that your voice matters, your body is yours, and you have the right to make decisions that are best for you.


Sharilyn Wester (1:14:04)

Thanks for tuning in everyone. Take care of yourselves and each other.


Cady Moore (1:14:08)

Over and out.


[Instrumental  music theme ending with the words “Knee deep in the passenger seat”.]